Ripe Puerh: What does "Fermentation Flavor" mean?

I keep seeing that ripe puerh looses it’s fermentation flavor over time. What does this mean? What flavors are indicative of fermentation flavor?
Is this a similar flavor to when people say “humid storage” with raw puerh? Is there such thing as a humid storage flavor with ripe?

22 Replies
AllanK said

Fermentation flavor is a different thing than humid storage. Ripe puerh undergoes pile fermentation or wo dui. It is essentially composted over a forty five day period. This fermentation leaves a flavor behind that is called fermentation flavor. All new ripe puerh has it. Humid storage flavor is something that develops over time and has a particular note often called wet wood. Any puerh can take on wet storage flavor as a consequence of storage. Only ripe puerh was pile fermented and can have fermentation flavor. An aged sheng puerh may be sometimes referred to as naturally fermented but it will never develop fermentation flavor. This is unique to ripe puerh.

The fermentation flavor… Is it fishy? Mildew-y? mushroom?

mrmopar said

I think it is like an off licorice note in the tea. Allan is right about sheng humid / wet storage . It is a different type of note.

AllanK said

Sometimes the fermentation flavor is described as fishy. It should not be mildew-y. I have never found it to taste like mushrooms. It is hard to describe. The best thing I can suggest is get a good ripe puerh sample from around 2014 or 2015. It will have fermentation flavor and you will immediately know what is meant. If the fermentation is properly done the flavor should be earthy but not fishy. Some of the 2015 Yunnan Sourcing productions would be a good place to start and I believe Scott sells samples.

Thanks! How long does it take for the flavor to go away? Maybe I’ll try to do a side by side.

AllanK said

If you want to try one where the fermentation flavor has gone away I can think of two to suggest. The 2008 Song of Chi Tse by Berylleb King Tea on Ebay seems to have lost the majority of its fermentation flavor. Also the 1996 CNNP “Green Mark Te Ji” Ripe by Yunnan Sourcing. Usually it takes anywhere from ten to twenty years in my opinion for a tea to totally lose its fermentation taste. Some people would tell you five but my experience with most teas that are ten years old is they still taste of fermentation. The CNNP from Yunnan Sourcing is expensive but Scott sells samples. The 2008 Song of Chi Tse is cheaper. Both in my opinion have cleared. Also something like the 1998 White Tuo from White2Tea I think has cleared. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

I just got my first pu-erhs from w2t a little over a month ago, I’m just getting familiar enough with them to figure out how I like to steep them and distinguish what I’m tasting. More so with the sheng than the shu, but I figure I’ll delve deeply into understanding the less complicated of the two first. I have a sample of the 2015 Old reliable and the 2006 Gongting. Other than that, I tasted some 10 yr old loose a few years back. I’m going to start saving up so that I can do a decent Yunnan sourcing order. I ordered a sample of the Song of Chi, financially an easier pill to swallow with sample sizes and no shipping. I think that I saw either you (Allan) or Dr. Jim talk it up.
Everyone on here is giving such great guidance. I joined a couple of months ago, and I’m really glad that I did! Thanks.

AllanK said

If you drink the old reliable and put it through eight or ten steeps. You will notice it has an earthy flavor for the first four to six steeps and then not so much. You see the earthy fermentation flavor essentially steeps out over a number of steeps.

I’ll save one of the first steeps and do a side by side. And I’m sure that eventually trying all of the teas that were being mentioned here won’t hurt either! :-D

soleiltea said

@Tea and Cheese Lover, mushroom—-yes. forest floor—-yes. Fishy——not so much.

Once you are ready to ferment the pu-erh, you can choose to store the tea in a temperature and humidity controlled environment to allow for natural fermentation by aging the tea. Or you may induce fermentation, aka wo-dui, by leaving a sizable pile of tea leaves on a flat surface, spraying water on the leaves, and covering the pile with a cloth to accelerate microbial activity.

As the leaves undergo fermentation, the “good” mold gives the ripe pu-erh its mellow taste of wood and sometimes mushroom and plum. But a fishy odor may arise when the temperature and/or moisture is not carefully controlled. This creates potential for “over fermenting” where undesirable microbes affect the quality of your pu-erh during the fermentation or storage process. The fishy smell is often found in lower grade pu-erh, which are sometimes “rushed” during the fermentation process with higher than ideal temperature/humidity.

More great information @soleil

AllanK said

One thing about the Old Reliable is the fact that White2Tea is a very solid manufacturer. You should be able to count on their fermentation even though someone probably ferments it for them. I think they have good quality control. The same can be said for Menghai Tea Factory ripe puerh. It was Menghai Tea Factory that invented ripe puerh sometime around 1973. When you see an Aliexpress seller telling you his ripe puerh is older than this you know he is selling a fake because it didn’t exist yet.

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boychik said

There is cheap brick on YS
http://yunnansourcing.com/en/xinghaiteafactory/3713-2008-xinghai-grade-7-ripe-pu-erh-tea-brick.html

I think it’s very very clean. I do not detect fermentation flavor in it.

Wow, half a pound of tea for $13, you’re not kidding about it being cheap. I added it to my list. Thanks!

AllanK said

I thought that brick good too. Great price. Sometimes cheap shou is very good. Not so much with sheng.

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Rasseru said

also the golden needle white lotus is one that i liked the fermentation flavour, you can get a sample of that from YS. It was more nice and earthy rather than fishy and off-putting

I think that I may not mind the fermentation flavor, but I need to try a bunch more Shu to figure that out, having only really tried 2 in recent history… And yet another one to add to the YS wishlist!

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I just did the experiment that Alan suggested. I detected a flavor that I can best describe as “sharp wet cardboard”, which sounds bad, but I don’t mind it at all. Would this be the fermentation flavor?

AllanK said

The main initial note will have been the fermentation. I suppose the description of sharp wet cardboard is one way to describe it. It will have been the dominant note for the first three to four steeps, perhaps five. When more pleasant this note is also sometimes described as bittersweet chocolate.

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Lumpkin said

what is Ripe Puerh

nycoma said

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Lumpkin said

cool

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